Scandalous!
There was a recent Pearls Before Swine comic strip that really struck a chord with me. The dialogue went something like this:
Goat: What are you doing?
Rat: I’m writing a letter to France.
Goat: About what?
Rat: I’m telling them that they should make French women shave their armpits. If God had meant for women to have hairy armpits then he would have made them that way.
Goat: Dude, God did make women that way.
Which brings me to the point of this post. As a young girl I remember wondering about what would happen in the resurrection. Would people still have scars? Christ kept his scars, what about people whose faces are severely burnt? Do they have to keep their scars? Will they get to pick? What about weight? Eyesight? Age? Downs syndrome? etc. I thought of tatoos and cosmetic surgery, and even permanent makeup. Would all of that stay? Finally I wondered, “Will women have to shave after the resurrection?” I thought that maybe the hair follicles would disappear, rendering shaving unnecessary. Then I thought, if God had meant us to hairless, He would have made us that way. This was the first time my little brain realized that something I had taken completely for granted, something that is just how society works, wasn’t how God intented it to be.
Another memory I have was when I was in 5th grade, recess had just ended and I had lined up with my class and was waiting for our teacher to bring us inside. A girl standing next to me looked at my legs and said “Gross, your legs are covered with hair! That’s disgusting.” I looked at my legs, and sure enough they were covered with hair. Fine blonde hairs that were only visible because of how the sunlight was shining. I secretly started using my older sister’s razor to shave until I could ask my mom to get me one of my own.
When I was 16 I had gone to the grocery store and saw a group of college kids. They were unwashed (literally, it was raining and their arms, legs and faces were spotted like dusty cars) hippies, and were quite obviously drunk. The thing that gets me, though, is that I was more repulsed by one of the woman’s unshaven legs than I was by her very dirty skin, greasy hair, and horrible body odor.
In the interests of full disclosure, I do shave my legs and underarms regularly. However, I find it horribly unfortunate that in America a woman’s shaving habits are often a political statement. Women who do not shave are quickly placed in a political category. Because I do not wish to make the political statement that unshaven legs and underarms make, I feel as though I must shave. If it were merely a matter of aesthetics I wouldn’t shave at all.
I’ve toyed with the idea of not shaving anymore. I asked my husband, and he said he doesn’t really care one way or the other. I often feel the need to keep some of my opinions on the down low around my parents and family. Unshaven legs and armpits, once seen, say more than I want to say (where I live is really hot, so long pants are really uncomfortable most of the year). I think that someday I’ll get some guts and just not worry about it so much. Or someday I’ll get so fed up with the media telling me that how I (and all women) look is all wrong and needs to be plucked waxed and shaved just to be “normal.”
I don’t like shaving. It’s not because it’s hard (because it isn’t really). I don’t like it because it makes my personal grooming habits into a public statement. It invades my privacy. I don’t like it because every time I do it I feel like I’m contributing to a social mindset that views a woman’s natural body and bodily functions as inherently unclean. I don’t like it because I know that it doesn’t really make me more attractive (because foreign women are plenty attractive when they don’t shave). I don’t like it because God didn’t make me hairless, and there’s no good reason that I should feel that I need to be. I am certain that after the resurrection there will be no razors for anyone, and no one will care.
May 3rd, 2006 00:14
Oh, this is a fun topic! Lots of room for interesting speculation, and no way to confirm much right now. I too have wondered about some of those details involved in the resurrection. Exactly what is meant by the scripture, “The spirit and the body shall be reunited again in its perfect form; both limb and joint shall be restored to its proper frame,” (Alma 11:43), or “perfect frame” (v.44) Will we be able to effect some changes in the way we look after we are resurrected (hair color, shape of nose, etc.) to make them conform to our particular idea of “perfect?” Or we will perceive things differently then, and be perfectly content with however we look?
May 3rd, 2006 02:27
There were some well-commented threads in the ‘Nacle about beards. The one difference is that male facial hair in the church is much more controversial from a religious cultural point of view than a woman’s hairy legs. I can’t think of any scriptures that deal with this topic.
May 3rd, 2006 08:04
Danithew, how is facial hair more controvercial? I’ve really never seen any evidence of that, and am curious how you (and apparently quite a few others) came to that conclusion. Where I’ve lived unshaved legs and armpits on a woman mean one of a few things, she’s a lesbian, she’s militant feminist who hates men, or she’s foreign and ‘doesn’t know any better.’ In that way unshaved legs on an American LDS woman would be a big deal. An unshaved face on men is discouraged if you’re in a leadership position, or working in the primary much the same way that a mullet or other extreme hairstyle would be discouraged. I just don’t see the controversy.
RoAnn, when I think of this my thoughts often turn to Frida’s self portraits. She painted herself exactly how she was, unibrow, mustache and everything. Somehow though, because of our cultural conditioning I just can’t see her as beautiful, and that bugs me. I think that we will be content with however we look. Could we really ‘improve’ on God’s design? Especially when the improvements are based on unrealistic expectations from an image obsessed culture?
May 3rd, 2006 08:56
‘In the interest of full disclosure,’ I shave my legs a scant handful of times throughout the year–pretty much only when I want to wear a favorite skirt of mine that only goes to my knees. I can get away with it for two reasons, and they both stem from living in Seattleland. -a- It’s cool enough here most of the time I’m wearing longer stuff. (Even in hot weather, I tend to wear sarongs which, while quite cool, go to my ankles.) -b- Seattle is pretty well steeped in the remnants of hippie, now the progressive left, culture, and there *is* safety in numbers. Hahahaha.
–ooops gotta go, will coment more later!–
May 3rd, 2006 10:18
Go to Europe–nobody shaves there. It’s very nice. You don’t even have to think about it. I did have another American student ask me if shaving my legs was against my religion, but that was the only comment I got. I even got comfortable wearing tank tops. I was never mistaken for an American tourist
. I did shave the second I set foot back on American soil, however, at the insistence of my sister when she picked me up at the airport in shorts and a T-shirt. I felt sad that I had to shave again, mostly because it was so convienent to not have to worry about it, but also because it meant I was truly back in America.
May 3rd, 2006 11:03
(I should also mention that I just don’t shave my underarms. It is downright painful for me, and before joining the church, only the call the wear some slinky evening gown ever got me to do it. It just wasn’t worth the pain.)
It does tweak me, though, that I have to feel like I’m ‘getting away’ with something by not doing it. We know that it is an abstract, aribtrary cultural value–if only because it is clearly not universal in the world. So, I think questions of body hair grroming in the eternities are kind of moot. I like to think that as part of our perfection in the eternities, we will be able to slough off some of these silly mortal notions.
Being restored to perfect frame, I sincerely feel, has little to do with looking like Miss America, y’know? Aesthetic ideals of beauty are so cultually framed, so learned, that I really feel (hope?) that they will be left behind wil this mortal sojourn. When that veil is removed, so much of how we think ‘things are’ will be removed with it.
I know I harp on this one a lot, but we’ve got to remember that a celestial perspective (as in the ability to think like, or to see things from Heavenly Father’s eyes) is going to be so vastly diffrent than even the most that our own current mninds could ever come close to seeing. I have a feeling that things like body hair, hair color, etc just might not seem that important in such a scope.
May 3rd, 2006 13:24
I always wait too long between haircuts. I find it annoying to get them, and annoying to pay for them. And shaving my face is a chore as well.
A man who didn’t shave or trim his beard would certainly be looked at strangely, and it’s a lot harder for him to hide than a pair of unshaved legs. He’d be as much a hippie as a woman with hair on her underarms and legs. There are certainly norms of grooming for both sexes that are unnatural yet mandatory for an upstanding member of the church (and society).
However, based on church videos (which I’m sure are doctrinally perfect), it looks like I won’t have to shave my face or get a haircut in the eternities, so women might get a free pass on the legs and underarms too.
May 3rd, 2006 13:54
JR from Dallas “He’d be as much a hippie as a woman with hair on her underarms and legs. ”
I have to disagree with you there. Take a look at Keven Barney of BCC, he is definitely bearded and is definitely not a hippie. A man can trim a beard without much more trouble than trimming his hair. I can’t ‘trim’ my underarm hairs in a way that doesn’t make me a hippie to my parents. My main point is that there is no middle ground for women. I wouldn’t mind it being an appearance based grooming standard like beards and regular hair are, I hate it being a political statement. Men can *make* their grooming habits into a political statment but it isn’t automatically interpreted that way. If a woman shaves her head bald, it is always political. If a man shaves his head bald it is only political if he has the tattoos to go with it.
(BTW I really don’t want this to devolve into “Having to shave a beard is so much worse than having to shave your legs/underarms.” “No it’s not! Shaving legs and underarms is so much worse, you can get away with stubble, I can’t!” )
May 3rd, 2006 15:02
I think it’s impressive your husband says he wouldn’t mind one way or the other. I don’t think that’s a universal sentiment among American men.
I personally don’t mind shaving because I like the results, but when I think about the cultural construct of beauty, I do get annoyed with the whole principle.
I too have spent some time contemplating aspects of physical resurrection. We always hear about how we’ll be resurrected in “our prime”- how likely is it that what we think is our prime, really is our prime? I’ve also heard it said that others will look to us the way they did when we last knew them on earth, but this of course is completely logically inconsistent. Unless it only applied to spirit life post-death, pre-resurrection. I also wonder about the gorgeous description of the Lord in D&C 110:3, “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone . . .” How significant is it that His hair is white? Will ours be as well? Which reminds me of a funny moment in my early teenage years. . .
I have always had really really thick hair. And it falls out all the time en masse, so I don’t know how it stays so thick. When I was about 12, I came across the scripture in Alma 11 that reads “Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost . . .” And I, right in front of my family, let out a loud, sincere, and very dramatic moan, “Oh nooooooooo!!!!” ( I suddenly had a vision of myself crushed under the weight of all that hair restored to my head! My understanding has, of course, matured since then.)
May 3rd, 2006 15:37
Starfoxy-
My intent was certainly not to get into a “Do men or women have it worse?” debate. I’ll say I’m glad I don’t have to shave my legs. But despite what you say, the reality is that having a beard in the church today does send a statement. It may not be as radical a statement as a woman not shaving her underarms, but it is a statement nonetheless. A few years ago I was at the priesthood session of General Conference, and I looked around the thousands of people around me to find men with beards. I saw two.
So my point is that both men and women face cultural pressures in society and in the church to conform to certain grooming standards, and those grooming standards are certainly a reflection of the culture in which we live. Clearly the descriptions and portrayals of Heavenly Father and Jesus don’t conform to those standards, and we wouldn’t expect them to, since they don’t live in our culture. So I find it likely that we will all be released from our current cultural constraints in the eternities (though there might be some new culture to conform to then!).
But neither men nor women can fully escape those pressures in society today. Another curse of mortality.
May 3rd, 2006 16:18
Miss Sarah (#9), I wonder if the description of the Lord you cited deals more with how he appears to a mortal because of the glorified nature of his body. Incredible light, beyond description, seems to characterize the appearance of God to mortals (who seem to have to undergo some sort of protective influence to endure his presence). There are all sorts of interesting descriptions of the celestial kingdom that seem beyond our understanding (city of glass, etc.). Maybe celestial beings appear differently to each other than they do to mortals. An interesting question!
I am reminded of my amazement when I witnessed a rocket launching at Cape Canavaral, Florida. The noise was incredibly loud, much louder than I had imagined. And the brightness of the flame was astonishing to me. Whiter and brighter than anything I had ever seen. After a moment of thought, I realized that there was no way to reproduce in photos the intensity of the brightness, or whiteness. On film, or on paper, you can only get to “white.” After that experience, I felt I had at least a slightly better idea of how the whiteness in the appearance of a heavenly being could be “beyond description.”
May 3rd, 2006 17:36
Hmmm, yes, that makes sense. Lots of sense. Thanks RoAnn!!
May 4th, 2006 12:06
Starfoxy
I have to agree with JR. My husband has a beard. But….he has to shave around it to keep it looking neat. If he didn’t, he would look homeless.
I think women can get “around” it…. if they simply wear pants and shirts that don’t show it, no one would know.
But, I realize that you don’t want a men vs. women debate so that’s the end of that.
I think that cultures do have certain dress and grooming standards. And people who go against the norm, tend to be in certain groups. So if you see someone who is bald with a scarf on her head, you assume “chemotherapy.” I suppose that it could just be someone shaving their head because they want to, but they can’t be surprised that people think they have cancer.
Typically, the women who have rebelled against shaving their legs have been women who are maybe a little more feminist? A little more hippy? A little more lesbian? Think of yourself. Why do you shave (because you know it is what most people do and is considered normal)? Why would you actually not do it? Because the benefit does not outweigh the negatives.
May 6th, 2006 23:36
I go through phases of shaving and not shaving my legs, myself. My husband says my skin is a bigger factor than the hair as far as smoothness feels for him. If I don’t use lotion/moisturizer then it feels like I’m neglecting my legs–regardless of the quantity of hair.
I know removing armpit hair helps to combat odor from perspiration, and that shaving body hair is a norm among competitive swimmers. Anyone know how/why/when shaving leg hair became a model of (mostly) American feminity?
May 6th, 2006 23:47
I forgot your to address the point of your post, Starfoxy–I got caught up in the comments =)
You know, I think it’s interesting as I realize that my perception of my body now determines what I want to see in my own body after the resurrection. I love my hair color… So I would be somewhat sad to see that go. My height I’m indifferent to, so I don’t think much about that. My body tone & weight–I definitely want to see Elder Holland’s promise that what we sacrifice on the altars of motherhood will be returned to us reflected in my immortal tabernacle!