Money, Men & Marriage
Brothers and sisters, I need your help with something…
Oh, where do I begin with this tale of woe? My sister is married to a man who monitors the mileage in their car when she drives it, measures her gas usage and grocery receipts, makes her pay rent for her 4 year-old son (his step-son), yells at her when she buys in bulk to save money, calls his mother to report the bad ‘money-managing’ skills she has, yells at her when she gives a gift to anyone, and constantly puts her down or belittles her because she doesn’t do things the way his mom taught him. He is in his mid-thirties and it is his first marriage. She is in her late 20’s, and it is her second marriage.
I’m not kidding! This tale is true. I cannot fathom why any person, man or woman, would treat a spouse the way he has treated her. He is a ‘good mormon boy’ and yet is totally blind to his failings, but happy to highlight and magnify any perceived infraction that my sister might commit.
He recently told her that when most young couples get married, the wife works for a few years to help, but because she has a four-year old, she has never had to work (even though she makes money from caring for other children in their home, and usually receives child support) and she must pay rent for her son. Where oh where do these kind of men come from? Dear readers, are these men common in our society? Is this guy an aberration? I already know he’s a more than a little off and have told my sister that the kind of nonsense he has put her through is not normal, that not all men are so weird.
They have only been married for a little over a year. My sister got pregnant not too long after they were married, and when she was 5 month along, she went into false labor. She called her husband (they share one car) to come and take her to the hospital, but he told her it was all in her head and if she would work out more she would feel better; and he would not leave work to help her. She had to call a neighbor/church friend to take her to the hospital. The doctor was able to help her, and sent her home with instructions for bed rest and no stress. During these months of her pregnancy, her husband would not touch her, not even hugs or hand-holding. He was disgusted by it all, and his only concern was that she get back to her before pregnancy weight within a month after the baby was born.
When she was six months along, she went into labor and their baby girl was born at 1.5 pounds and three months early. My sister lived day and night in the hospital helping take care of baby Jane. Little Jane only lived one month and passed away. Her spirit was strong but her little body was not developed enough to survive. Her dad visited her maybe once or twice during the month of her life on earth. However, he did make a big show of being supportive during the funeral. Then turned around and blamed my sister for the death of their child.
This tale has more ugliness and sadness, but my reason for writing is to try and find some insight. Our side of the family has prayed and fasted on my sister’s behalf and try as we might to hope they can work things out, we are really hoping they end things now and get divorced. We can’t fathom a life for our beloved sister and daughter with a man who has no compassion or affection. What a heartbreak!
I am interested in your comments, thoughts, ideas on how I can help my sister emotionally. Our family will be helping her financially, but it is her self-esteem, and self-image that has been damaged the most.
May 21st, 2006 15:47
I have a sister in a relationship sort of like this, and I too have wondered these very things. One thing is very clear, this man is abusive, even if he hasn’t hit her. His actions clearly demonstrate all the signs of an abusive relationship.
My first question is does his mom and dad know how their son is treating her? Would they turn a blind eye if they did know, (ie my son can do no wrong)? If they would be sympathetic to your sister then they may be helpful in getting this man the counselling that he obviously needs. It would be *fantastic* if he could change his ways and salvage the marriage. However, if it’s not going to happen, then it’s not going to happen and your sister should save herself and child(ren) post-haste. It would be horrible if her son learned how to treat women from this man, and perpetuated the cycle of abuse. Good luck.
May 21st, 2006 16:28
That man is in the category that President Hinkley noted that did not deserve the priesthood or salvation.
Sorry I do not have any advice.
That sort of thing makes me cranky.
May 21st, 2006 16:44
While I would probably be interested in hearing his side of the story, my advice to your sister is to run, now. It won’t get better, and very likely will get much, much worse. The bishop, RS, president, EQ president and LDS Family Services all need to get involved. This is a disaster and it won’t do any good to ignore it.
May 21st, 2006 17:51
Hi all,
I want to apologize for venting my frustrations on our blog. I appreciate your comments and thoughts. In the future I will give myself a time-out before publishing a personal and emotional subject.
May 21st, 2006 18:04
Okay, did this story get posted to another Mormon blog recently? It sounds very familiar to me.
Anyhow, yes, this story is all too common. Many/most guys aren’t like this to nearly this level, but it does happen in the Church as well as outside it. I’ve been involved with DV recovery (both survivors and recovering abusers) for 11 years now, and I’ve seen and heard of worse than this within the Church.
All I’m going to suggest to you to suggest to your sister is that she read over my abuse website. I’m going to suggest you read it over as well, particularly the documents on supporting someone in an abusive situation. There is a great deal more to that job than saying “Run like the walls were bleeding” even when that’s the most important thing you can come up with to say. Part of it is accepting that she may not get out of the situation and, if she does, she might find another that’s worse yet.
Please do not apologize for bringing something real to this blog. You are not the only person here who has been in that situation, and others will be in it in the future. You bringing your situation here and getting the feedback you’re getting helps them as well as you. I think you’re probably a bit embarrassed right now, since you’ve calmed down. That’s normal. But that doesn’t mean that you did anything wrong in posting this. I’m not going to give you the “You’re so brave to bring this here!!” thing because that’s not me, but I do appreciate that you did it and it does show guts.
May 21st, 2006 18:12
I will refer this to my husband. He is a professional counselor that works with sexual and domestic violence issues, and this has all the halmarks of an abusing situation. My sister was reciently divorced from a husband that wanted to control everything and they never merged finances. He also left her to deal with a miscarriage alone.
I do believe it to be rare, but it happens all too often. The public persona is much different from the private one. At this point there is not much you can do for your sister until she comes to the point of making the choice on her own. Any other interference could turn her against you and side with him. I know that doesn’t make sense but that is what happens. All you can do is keep loving her, and let her know that you are concerned.
May 21st, 2006 18:24
This is, undoubtedly, an abusive situation, and does merit at the very least the awareness, if not outright intervention of their priesthood leaders and appropriate social services office.
As for your sister’s self-image. It is vital that you share with her that she has worth in both yours and God’s eyes. The harshest lash of abuse is the feeling that one somehow deserves it.
Not knowing your sister personally, I have no more specific advice for you than that. Frequent reminders of your love will go a long way right now. Carefully-worded reminders that his behavior is a reflection of HIM, just him–no matter how he blames it on her.
My heart goes out to all of you, as will my prayers.
May 21st, 2006 19:32
My sister was in a very similar relationship for many years. It is so destructive but she thought that staying with him was better for her children. When her sons started acting like their father and her daughters started letting boys/men treat them like their father treated their mother, she finally decided enough was enough. It has been a few years now since she left him and still he wields so much control over her - through the children, through not paying child support, through the way he is choosing to “settle” the divorce. It makes me sick!
I’m not sure exactly what reference you have of Pres Hinkley (#2), but I personally do not believe this type of man deserves the priesthood or salvation. The problem is all the church leaders seem to think differently. My brother-in-law still holds a valid temple recommend and shows up there like he is the most valiant, worthy man on the planet. It’s hard to see no justice done and it’s really hard to see his actions and the actions of other priesthood leaders in the situation and not become bitter towards that authority. I pray that my sister can stay strong during the whole, long ordeal and make it through to the other side with her testimony of the gospel semi-intact.
As for your sister, I sure hope she seriously considers getting out of the relationship now. It will be much harder in 20 years for her and the children. She is lucky that she has the support of her family when and if she makes that decision.
May 21st, 2006 19:58
Blain #5, I’m glad you commented on this one, and linked your abuse page. I was going to link it, but couldn’t remember where it was, or where I had found it. It’s a good resource.
May 22nd, 2006 08:13
I have no advice to offer but your sister and her family will be in my prayers!
I don’t personally know if there’s anything in the temple marriage ceremony about promising to love, honor and cherish but if there is you might gently remind her that he’s failing to keep his covenant.
May 22nd, 2006 09:29
You’re on the right track to love her and support her without giving advice. I have worked with a number of men like you described for over 15 years, as a counselor. Except, by the time I meet them they are often court-ordered… To give advice would make her still dependent (unless life threatening, then it crisis management)Sharing your opinion, when asked, and stating that if you were in the same position you hope you could still see… the fact of the matter is only she understand exactly where she is (mental perspective with such brainwashing happening) Helping her remember her values and recognize her own risks, and risks to her son… will be the main motivation… Become involved with a victim advocacy program, many police departments have one now, lay-person support group may be scary due to the husbands policing (controling her to keep his own insecurities in check) her time, etc. Just a few thoughts, counseling should only be sought with a therapist trained in Domestic Violence (not only about hitting…)
May 22nd, 2006 12:16
The reference to President Hinkley was from the Preisthood session of General Conference last month (April 2006).
As far as any advice, the most important thing is for your sister to beleive she is worth more, and does NOT deserve how this human being is treating her. Until SHE beleives that, nothing anyone else does will likely do any good, unfortunatley.
Encourage her to get professional help…
May 22nd, 2006 16:46
9 — You’re welcome.
12 — You’re close, but the most important thing for her right this second is to be safe. Safety has to come first. That’s why “You have to leave right away” (women are most likely to be seriously injured or killed while or after leaving abusive relationships) and “Don’t let him treat you like that! Stand up for yourself!” (abuse is about power and control, and, when there is clear sign that that power and control is fading, the intensity of the abuse tactics chosen will escalate), for all of their good intentions, are a really bad idea.
Things like leaving the relationship and healing require planning and bringing fundamental change to the situation (usually limiting or removing access by the abuser). I talk about this stuff more on my abuse website. It’s really designed to be a good place to start looking into this issue.
May 22nd, 2006 17:09
I believe that when you are married, you should do everything it would take to make things last forever. While I agree this is a bad situation, they need counseling together. Something is needed for him to wake up. I would try everything before considering a divorce. Divorcing without counseling first would not be right. If he is reasonable, he will come around.
May 22nd, 2006 18:56
14 — I don’t agree with your words because of the level of absoluteness in them. I suspect that I could describe situations I’m aware of where you would not be willing to try one thing more, and would want to leave that marriage with no further notice.
Counseling is only an option if he’s willing to attend with an eye toward his bad behavior and a willingness to address that and change how he does things. This would mean that he would be attending counseling on his own, and I will put a dollar on the counter to your penny that he will refuse to do so. Couple counseling in this situation would be inappropriate and dangerous, and a counselor who would see them as a couple when aware of the information shared here would be unethical.
I am not, at this juncture, suggesting that the lady in question plan a divorce or even a separation. I simply don’t have enough information to know which I would want to suggest (if either). And what you and I (and everybody else on this blog) think she ought to do doesn’t amount to a bucket of warm spit — it’s not our choice to make, we don’t have enough information to make it, and we’re not the ones to face the consequences of that choice. Telling her what to do is counterproductive, even if you’re right. Note that my only direct suggestion for the sister was that she look over my abuse site. It’s not the only information I have that might be of benefit, but that’s all I will offer unsolicited. If she chooses to read over my abuse site, the next play will be hers to make anyhow.
Abuse messes with your sense of self and self-power. Healing from abuse comes through gaining those back, and that isn’t furthered by changing one person telling her what to do for another person telling her what to do. Supporting her means respecting her choices even when you disagree with them. This is where a lot of Mormons have a problem — we have a strong desire to persuade people to choose the right, without realizing that God respects their right to choose the wrong, and we should as well.
May 22nd, 2006 19:55
I’m with Stephen. Sort of speechless with anger. I’d send her a copy of “50 ways to leave your lover.”
Actually, I know of no men like this one. None, personally. I know some who have certain aspects, my husband is very cheap, but I am very extravagant, so we balance out. He’s certainly not those other things.
I’d say it’s rare that a guy is that screwed up. She needs to know it’s not her. And if he’s treating her child like that, she needs to hit the road fast.
I’m perturbed, too, Stephen.
May 22nd, 2006 21:33
Oy, Indi, no insight here, just counting my blessings for such a wonderful husband.
May 23rd, 2006 21:03
I also think that you can’t just give her advice. If she isn’t ready to see her situation as it is, she will just be following your advice, and that will not help empower her. She will easily be convinced back to her situation.
Help her gain some confidence by treating her like she is smart and capable (not like she is making a poor choice by staying with a controlling husband).
I’ve read a little on the internet about abuse. It is SO hard for people like me (and I assume you) to understand how someone can get themselves into a situation where we are treated that way. Our natural reaction is to say “Just leave the guy, or just put your foot down and say no.” But unfortunately the victim thinks it is their fault and loses confidence.
I recommend reading as much as you can about abuse. I would suggest even going to a counselor yourself who can give you better insight into this situation. This is your sister and this is important. This situation might get worse and worse, and professional help might be very useful for you.
May 23rd, 2006 21:48
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to respond. I appreciate all of your thoughts, comments, prayers, and advice.
I thought it would be helpful if I let you know that my sister and her husband have met many times with their Bishop, together and individually. They have also met with their Stake President, and a marriage counselor. Unfortunately, it takes two people to make a marriage work and her husband is entirely disengaged and uninterested. His mother’s day gift was to announce to my sister that he was going to fill out divorce papers. I believe she has convinced him to give their relationship one more chance, and so I hope and pray his heart can be softened and his eyes opened with compassion and love.
May 23rd, 2006 21:59
19 — Thanks for the additional information. Unfortunately, this is not a matter that bishops and stake presidents are trained to deal with, and most don’t know what to do. Marriage counselors rarely have much background in recognizing abuse tactics sufficient to notice and address abuse tactics exhibited during counseling — not exactly their fault, because those tactics can be very subtle and hard to recognize without experience.
But I’m getting the impression that my point isn’t welcome, so I’ll stop for now.
May 24th, 2006 07:40
Blain you are so right. My husband has done many seminars with Bishops and Stake presidents on this issue. It is hard to grasp the manipulations that can go on. As you know only someone really looking to change will do it and that is the problem with domestic abuse. It is easy to stand on the outside and say what should be done. It is harder to be in the situation and do something about it.
May 24th, 2006 12:10
Blain, I’m really glad you posted on this. I went to your site and learned a lot. Although I don’t know anyone in an abuse situation (that I know of), many of my friends do, and it is difficult to know what to say.
Indi, I think you should consider learning more about spousal emotional abuse. I know I’m no expert and don’t really know these people so I am just giving my own opinion. It seems like if she “convinces” him to stay, she will be even more of a victim because she will constantly be trying to please him so that he won’t leave. He currently has a lot of control over her. The longer your sister is in this situation, the more she feels like she deserves to be treated this way.
I don’t know the best way to find professional help specifically for abuse. Perhaps if she saw a counselor on her own, she could work through some of her own issues and it would help her take control of her life. I’m not saying that divorce is inevitable–sometimes a happier marriage is possible, but I really think she needs to start feeling empowered to help herself get her life in order. She won’t be able to have a happy marriage if her husband controls her like this.
May 24th, 2006 12:13
(cont. from above)
I have a friend who I knew while she was married and through her divorce and past it. Her husband would start to say that he was leaving, she would beg him to stay but he would keep saying he was leaving. As soon as she quit asking him to stay and accepting the idea of divorce, he would start talking about staying together. Obviously this was told from her point of view, but it really felt like he was using it as a threat to manipulate her.
May 24th, 2006 13:10
22 — You’re welcome, and thanks for saying that. I will suggest you look closer at what you say, though. You indicate that you don’t know anyone in an abuse situation, and then you describe your friend’s abusive situation.
See, a lot of folks think that abuse has to be big, bad, ugly and dangerous, like a Lifetime movie. It doesn’t. It can be small, subtle and manipulative. That it’s the latter doesn’t mean it can’t go to the former quite suddenly, with no advance warning, and be lethal. There is no way of predicting ahead of time how dangerous a situation can get, but the degree of need for control is one of the ways of assessing the lethality of the situation. This is one of the things a person being abused can get help with from an experienced abuse advocate — a lethality assessment of their situation.
I’m pleased that your friend’s situation doesn’t seem to be one of high lethality. Now that you’ve learned a few things about what abuse looks like, be prepared to notice it here and there all over the place. Learning about abuse is like learning about conceptual physics — it changes the way you see the world.
May 26th, 2006 12:28
I have a friend I’ve been helping through a situation like this, and Blain, I’m going to your website next. My friend knows her husband is abusive in the way he controls and blames her for things, but she hopes that if she can keep things together he will eventually repent. They have 6 kids, and divorce will certainly be painful, however, over the last year she has slowly moved in the direction of deciding to divorce. Here’s what I have done to help her:
1. I keep in touch with her regularly to give her the chance to confide if she wishes. Sometimes she wants to vent, or get suggestions. Other times she just wants light conversation. Sometimes I inquire, “how’s it going?” or “how did that issue work out?”, but mostly I let her decide to talk or not. I think that helps us stay friends, that she can talk to me on a bad day because I’ll allow her to have space and privacy until she’s ready to talk.
2. I try to let my reactions to the things she tells me serve as a touchstone to what “normal” is. I clearly label behavior (That is unreasonable; that is selfish; that is manipulative) but I try to do it either sympathetically, or detached, as if I was diagnosing an infection (yup, that looks infected, rather than Ewww! That’s infected, get out of here!)
3. When she does tell me something, I try to ask her how she feels about it, or what she wants to do about it, and then I try to brainstorm with her the best way to accomplish her goal. We talk out any weaknesses in her plan, or ideas for backup plans, but it’s like I’m an assistant, not her boss. I hope that my input helps her develop a solid plan, and that my feedback helps her know her ideas are reasonable. I consider it like I’ve put my brain at her disposal.
4. When she makes a decision, I let her know that I think she’s smart and strong and good, and she’s making the best of a really tough situation. She’s the one who has to live with her decisions, so I respect what she decides and will help her accomplish it.
She’s confided in me for over a year, and she told me a few months into this that she’d told her family about the problems, and they had all gotten so mad at her husband, and they wanted her to leave him so badly that when she decided to stay with him and try counseling, she had to tell them she couldn’t talk with them about it anymore. She knows that they think she should leave him, so if she decides to leave she will call them and get their input on how to do it, but as long as she’s trying to work things out it’s too difficult to talk to them. I’d say you can give advice and suggest things, as long as you make clear they are just options. You can’t take the position that THIS IS THE THING YOU NEED TO DO.
Indi, I’m so sorry for your sister and your family.
Now I’m going to go read Blain’s site, and find out where my instincts have been wrong!
May 26th, 2006 14:01
One thing that Blain and Faith’s stories reminded me of was my conviction that sometimes, enduring bad behavior isn’t really a kind or virtuous thing. I can see how separating BEFORE you get to the point of no return, in some cases, could be a wise course of action, one part of a plan to “work things out”.
May 26th, 2006 22:59
25 — Wow.
….. I tell you, wow.
You’ve got great instincts. I’d suggest you volunteer in a good DV program, but I can’t be certain they wouldn’t try to train some of those good instincts out of you. I’ll trust you to decide if it fits you and to handle the situation quite well.
Wow.
Okay, I’ll respond with something a bit more specific. Gimme a minute.
What you’re doing is showing respect for her ability to deal with the situation, and that helps her feel confident that she can deal with the situation. That means she’s more apt to try to deal with it rather than just letting it happen to her. You’re actually helping her, because you’re assisting her in doing what she’s doing on her own — as opposed to a lot of the “helping” that goes on where the “helper” takes over the situation and “fixes” everything, then turns to the next problem to “help” with.
26 — That’s one of the most insightful things anybody has said in response to what we’ve had to write since the site went up in 1994.
Yes. I do actually encourage people to separate (at whatever level and duration of separation is appropriate) as a first response to intolerable behavior, rather than at the last possible second that it can be tolerated. If it can be done early enough, there is a much better chance that it will not escalate to the nasty situations that will require more permanent separations. It has a lot to do with saving your energy for dealing with the difficulties of the separation, rather than exhausting yourself to no particular end before getting to that point. Not that I’ve quite thought of it that way — I’m usually stuck arguing with people who think that early separation predisposes divorce (I’m convinced it’s the best protection from divorce).
Thanks. I’m very impressed.
May 27th, 2006 00:19
I hope I will never have to looking for this thread for me or for someone close to me… but I am thankful for the great advice, examples and resources from the commenters.
May 27th, 2006 07:35
Thanks Blain, and I really appreciated your site and the insights you’ve given here. Interestingly, I can’t follow any of my advice with my mother-in-law. Her, I tell what she needs to do, and push, push, push.
I think JKS really caught on to something important in Indi’s sister’s case: it is very difficult to impress upon someone how important it is for something to change when you’ve begged them to stay, and it opens you up to manipulation. Hopefully she can be strong and insist that the staying be accompanied by some serious cooperation.
May 27th, 2006 10:23
Blain, sorry I think I was a little unclear. The friend I described is now divorced. While she was married, there were definitely some problems of manipulation on both sides and I saw a lot that I was concerned about.
While I currently don’t know of anyone in an abuse situation, I do have friends who like Indi are worried about someone they know so it does come up in conversation.
May 28th, 2006 04:02
I’ve known others close to me to be in similar cases. It is very a very hard thing to sit back and do nothing. My case has been with friends and not a sister and I chose not to interfere. I don’t know what I’d do if it were my sister. It makes me sick to read what your sister is going through. It sounds like you are grounded and able. My prayers are with you.
May 28th, 2006 15:27
That’s a sad case, and I have nothing to add except to get a good attorney on retainer as part of a counseling strategy. That may require a friend or a relative to contact the attorney themselves and get advice, because the abused won’t often do it. Attorneys who are reading here may have their own commentary.
I used to home teach a family that was this situation in reverse — the wife was abusive, beat up her husband (and was arrested on multiple occasions), criticized him in public for every perceived shortcoming, refused to pay bills (but spent the money on other things). I know, this doesn’t happen very often, but it’s not always the husband who is exercising unrighteous dominion. This particular couple got divorced, as I recall.
I know too many couples, however, where the man is too domineering and the woman too cowering. There’s a reason why some men are still single into their 30s and still calling their mother every time something bad happens.
May 29th, 2006 20:47
Here’s my two cents:
What the woman needs most is support.
Make sure that you stay in touch with her regularly, and make sure that she keeps her outlook about what’s happening firmly rooted in the reality of what is going on.
Encourage them go see a professional marriage counsellor, but if that will not work, then if you feel like you can trust their bishop, get them to start seeing him for marriage counseling.
This is not the kind of situation where it is likely to help to pretend to get along with the guy–not even just to make things sociable. Be openly critical of him and encourage her to be critical of him. Do they live nearby? If so, make your homes an oasis for her. Make no bones about the fact that he’s not welcome when your family gathers.
Aside from that, give me their address, and I’ll kick the living [daylights] out of the guy.
Edited